Hero Nerfs?

[ElecManEXE_555]

Why are all of these "bad scaling" topics getting necro'd all of a sudden? This one, and at least one other in the Feedback forum...

[Oblivionbringa]

This thread was linked to in other threads. The topic was interesting and as the problem has not been addressed in recent patches, I thought it worth sharing my opinion on the matter. Didn't mean to sound trollish, but im not gonna candy coat it, this feature ruins co-op with lower level players for me.

[ElecManEXE_555]

But the scaling is perfectly fine now. It used to be pretty iffy around launch, but they adjusted it and I see zero problem with it now. I've played with low level players and I've not felt "useless" or anything like that. In fact, if anything the scaling leaves you slightly too powerful now (though too powerful is better than too weak, so I wouldn't do much to change it without careful consideration).

If you're so weak you're getting 2-3 shotted regularly, it could be that you're under-geared even for the level you're at. If you're already underpowered, then getting scaled down will keep you underpowered or maybe even make it a bit more obvious that you are.

[Oblivionbringa]

I understand your logic, and how it is supposed to work. But my experience from playing under its influence does not match up with what you claim.

What I am saying is that it makes playing on lower levels harder than playing at your current highest level.

With my current gear, it is easier to do the higher level, than to play under this nerf at lower levels.

Perhaps the problem is that my gear is too good for my current level, so when I play at a lower level the game makes it as difficult as 2-3 threat levels higher than my 'current'. Who knows what factors it bases the scaling on. Or perhaps im just a terrible player and move up the threat level chain more slowly than the rate at which the game thinks I should according to my cog/gear levels, or whatever it bases these nerf scales on.

Some case examples that I remember clearly as making this problem glaringly obvious was when I was doing threat level 16 I think it was. Was pretty darn hard, but eventually I got past it. Did several 16 chain runs, then went on to threat level 17, and did 2-3 17 chains.
But when I went back to 16 chains to help others get past it, I was getting facerolled. It was way harder than I remember it being the first time around, and certainly harder than 17 chain.

This isnt a special case, I have noticed this behavior many times, even recently when doing 18-3 to 18-4^2 with a party member who has net yet beaten them, the nerf applied to us makes it stupid hard, to the point that we have to quit the mission and start a group with only those of similar levels because nobody wants to put up with the asinine artificial difficulty forced upon us.

The feature is flawed in concept and especially in execution. Its not like Im the only one with this opinion, Im in fact shocked you think it is perfectly fine, because most people I have played with avoid doing a chain party with people who have not beaten all the levels in that chain. The smart ones will leave the party as soon as such person is invited in, and I dont blame them.

[Mysteryem]

This isnt a special case, I have noticed this behavior many times, even recently when doing 18-3 to 18-4^2 with a party member who has net yet beaten them, the nerf applied to us makes it stupid hard, to the point that we have to quit the mission and start a group with only those of similar levels because nobody wants to put up with the asinine artificial difficulty forced upon us.

I have to point you out on this paragraph, if you're at 18-4+, none of your stats will be altered when going back to play any level in the 18 series with your friends, your stats are only scaled down when going beyond 4 levels of your current campaign progression (ignoring endless progression).

[Oblivionbringa]

I'll try verifying that, perhaps im just remembering wrong. It sure seemed like sometimes we would just get steamrolled in 18-3 right off the bat when it was a 1 low + 3 high level party combination. Not because one would be an anchor, but because the enemies hit harder than normal.

[ZeroEdgeir]

I'll try verifying that, perhaps im just remembering wrong. It sure seemed like sometimes we would just get steamrolled in 18-3 right off the bat when it was a 1 low + 3 high level party combination. Not because one would be an anchor, but because the enemies hit harder than normal.

That is something completely different. That isn't your team being scaled down, but rather the Darkspore improperly scaling too high. I think I recall seeing something about that somewhere. I could be wrong.

Make sure if it happens again, if you have the actual Buff called "Cooperation" I believe, that scales everything down. Been awhile since I played with friends.

[Oblivionbringa]

Ok I have since verified this.

I played two chains in a party where two people were high level 70+, and the other two were lower level and had not yet beaten 18-4 ( around 60).

We get face stomped on 18-4, the difficulty level was extreme for me, I was taking ludicrous damage, it was like I had zero dodge and resist, and my powers felt noticeably weaker than normal, poping a tork heal just wasnt doing a lick of good

So we try again, this time starting at 18-3, and it is the same effect. Me and the other higher level player were taking insane amounts of damage, and just werent dealing the dps we normally do.

Now I am sure I'll get replies like "you just suck dude". Yeh, no. I can solo up to 18-4^9, and have done it in a two party as well. I can do 18-4+ chains with ease.

From playing so much in the infinite chain you get a feel for how hard enemies hit, and how much dps you can deal. How fast you kill stuff, and how resilient you are.

and when I play 18 chain paired with lower level people, its like my heroes have no dodge, no resist, and weakened powers and damage. Making it even more difficult than deep chain levels.

I dont mind helping lower level people beat 18-4, what I do mind however is the absurd gimping I have to suffer through in order to do it. Its a broken and ill thought out 'feature'. period.

[Netromon]

No, Oblivion, you are right on the money. Players are being nerfed because of the difference in level between you and the other players. I have been experiencing much of this lately. I am over Crogen level 70 and when I play with others who are level 59-60 ish, I get severely nerfed and levels which are usually a breeze become damn near impossible. I failed at completing 18-4 3 ties in a row with a group of players who were all at least ten levels lower than me. I was actually asked to leave because it was easier before I tried helping them. So yeah, it is bogus. I am assuming the nerfing is based on the disparity of the crogenitor levels rather than what threat level it is. I could be wrong.
However when checking my damage the last time this happened I was only doing a little bit less than half the damage I normally would do running the same level solo. I think it is not coincidence or me playing badly, rather it is some over the top nerfing.

[Mysteryem]

Ok I have since verified this.

I played two chains in a party where two people were high level 70+, and the other two were lower level and had not yet beaten 18-4 ( around 60).

We get face stomped on 18-4, the difficulty level was extreme for me, I was taking ludicrous damage, it was like I had zero dodge and resist, and my powers felt noticeably weaker than normal, poping a tork heal just wasnt doing a lick of good

So we try again, this time starting at 18-3, and it is the same effect. Me and the other higher level player were taking insane amounts of damage, and just werent dealing the dps we normally do.

Now I am sure I'll get replies like "you just suck dude". Yeh, no. I can solo up to 18-4^9, and have done it in a two party as well. I can do 18-4+ chains with ease.

From playing so much in the infinite chain you get a feel for how hard enemies hit, and how much dps you can deal. How fast you kill stuff, and how resilient you are.

and when I play 18 chain paired with lower level people, its like my heroes have no dodge, no resist, and weakened powers and damage. Making it even more difficult than deep chain levels.

I dont mind helping lower level people beat 18-4, what I do mind however is the absurd gimping I have to suffer through in order to do it. Its a broken and ill thought out 'feature'. period.

I don't think you're taking into account the solo to co-op differences. All enemies in co-op have greatly increased health, and ever since one of the patches/hotfixes, have also dealt increased damage, (about 2x their normal damage in 4 player co-op).

Solo is so much easier, because you are often able to kill enemies before they can even reach you, aoe/piercing attacks only damage one player, you, and everything deals considerably less damage.

If you play co-op with much lower level players, you'll end up aggro-ing everything, therefore taking tons of damage. Due to the additional health, you alone won't be able to kill the darkspore very quickly, so you need the lower level players' help. Unfortunately, they're much weaker, so simply don't have the dps to handle it.

You can expect ~2500 damage minions in solo and ~5000 damage in co-op and ~5000 damage elites in solo and ~10000 damage in co-op.

And as before, none of your stats are lowered on 18-1 to 18-4 if you're helping lower level players.

You also have to consider if it's actually like the two higher level players having to a do a 4 player 18-4 almost on their own because the other two players are rubbish/low level and don't contribute much.

Edit: Hmm, there shouldn't be any nerfing for these levels, and maxis sure hasn't said anything about it if there have been changes. The last 18-3 to 18-4 run I did with some lower level players was still a breeze, but I'll see if I can do another one.

[Netromon]

Myst, I have been tracking this lately and I think he(Oblivion) is right. I was in a group with 3 lower level players the other day and all my heroes were doing severely reduced damage. it was not that the DS were doing such an extreme amount more it was that my 197 level Zrin was only doing about 2500 dam with his base attack. My Skar was doing about 1500 per blade. These are not normal numbers for doing level 18-4 for my guys. Myst, try doing it with players who are more than 10 crogen levels lower than you and see if that makes a difference. That seems to be where I started noticing me being nerfed. Worthy of note , all of the lower level players had already completed 18-4 before I played with them. So 18-4 is basically an endless level at this point. Still, we could not seem to beat 18-4 and apparently once I left the party they handled it fine.

[Oblivionbringa]

I don't think you're taking into account the solo to co-op differences. All enemies in co-op have greatly increased health, and ever since one of the patches/hotfixes, have also dealt increased damage, (about 2x their normal damage in 4 player co-op).

If you play co-op with much lower level players, you'll end up aggro-ing everything, therefore taking tons of damage. Due to the additional health, you alone won't be able to kill the darkspore very quickly, so you need the lower level players' help. Unfortunately, they're much weaker, so simply don't have the dps to handle it.

You can expect ~2500 damage minions in solo and ~5000 damage in co-op and ~5000 damage elites in solo and ~10000 damage in co-op.

And as before, none of your stats are lowered on 18-1 to 18-4 if you're helping lower level players.

You also have to consider if it's actually like the two higher level players having to a do a 4 player 18-4 almost on their own because the other two players are rubbish/low level and don't contribute much.

Edit: Hmm, there shouldn't be any nerfing for these levels, and maxis sure hasn't said anything about it if there have been changes. The last 18-3 to 18-4 run I did with some lower level players was still a breeze, but I'll see if I can do another one.

I only cited the solo and 2 party play to ^9 as an example of not being a bad player. I actually rarely play solo. 90% of the time I play in 3-4 player parties doing 18-4+ chains. This is where I am drawing the comparison.

You make a lot of good points though. The players I was playing with were certainly not good, I was definitely drawing the majority of the aggro. But the things that stand out to me were the times when I would withdraw from the battle in order to heal up, and it was like I just couldnt heal for enough to matter, and despite the fact that I was drawing the most aggro, the other players were still being killed easily.

The thing is, I rarely play in a 4 party where everyone is doing the same amount of damage, typically 1-2 people do more than twice the damage the other two do combined. This is caused from cat distribution as well as gear and or hero differences. So I am familiar with dealing with the aggro draw in situations like that since Im a high dps ravager user.

Anyways I know this is just anecdotal evidence, would be nice to get some hard evidence but that's easier said than done considering the variables.

One thing to consider is that if you have health leech gear or cats, this can greatly influence the perceived difficulty level. Try removing that gear from your hero and then test in this situation in order to see just how much damage your taking as well as how effective your tork/medi heals are.

[Mysteryem]

I went and did an 18-1 to 18-4 chain with some lower level players yesterday. I recorded my normal stats and then recorded them in the level I was in. No differences whatsoever. As expected, high enemy hp and damage due to playing co-op, just like doing endless normally. One of the players was 19 crogenitor levels lower than me, so that doesn't look like it has anything to do with what you're describing as happening.

[Netromon]

@Mysteryem, Well, then there was something wrong with me the last time I played co-op and that happened. Because somehow I was only doing about 1/2 of my normal damage or less the last time it happened. Maybe htere were some elite affixes I did not notice that were giving auras. I don't know, but I feel foolish because recently I did this and my Magnos was doing so little damage it was pathetic. Ran the same Magnos last night in a group of like leveled heroes and he was doing about 25K per hit with his main attack on average, crits the majority of the time. I am at a loss as to how that same Magnos was doing so little damage in a chain last week.
Still, not all elements of the RNG seem to be working properly, as the Parts Store insists on proving it to us daily for the last four days. It makes me wonder is some elements of this game go back and forth between working properly and not working properly. Is it possible that this element of the game(Hero Nerfs)is not being consistent and that something may be causing some heroes to be nerfed when they should not be? I am probably just an idiot is more like it, but It has been confusing me now and then when a hero seems to be fighting gods out there, not DS.

[ElecManEXE_555]

Perhaps the game compares hero levels and not crogenitor levels. That'd actually make more sense, because you can grind Crogenitor Level to an extent and be well beyond the level most "normal" players would be at for the same threat. I'm crogenitor level 49, for example, and I'm only at 15-2. I've seen people (browing the lobbies) that are at 16 and maybe even one or two at 17 and below my crogenitor level.

Someone who is crogenitor level 50 can still have the same hero levels as someone who is crogenitor level 75, provided they've gotten good loot and pooled it on specific heroes. Other heroes might not be equipped quite as well.

Perhaps some testing as far as grouping with someone with intentionally poor-geared heroes would yield this kind of resault rather than crogenitor level.

[Psynergi]

Year 2012 now, and nothing has happened in terms of balancing as far as i can tell...

*rage*

[Inquisitor_Laine]

Just all the patches that happened post-released, yeah.

Locking. Necro thread.